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	<title>Comments on: Conservatives can&#8217;t cave to chest-beating primates</title>
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	<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/03/30/conservatives-cant-cave-to-chest-beating-primates/</link>
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		<title>By: Craig Westover</title>
		<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/03/30/conservatives-cant-cave-to-chest-beating-primates/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Westover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mnfmi.org/?p=1388#comment-22</guid>
		<description>Here’s the problems with Nick’s argument.

Businesses and individuals do actually build the infrastructure; not only that, the private sector creates the demand for that infrastructure. Government can’t build anything until someone creates the wealth necessary to build it. Infrastructure could easily be built privately, but there is an objective “public good” aspect to infrastructure that makes its construction and maintenance a legitimate function of government. Read the post by Rep. Matt Dean, which poses the proper questions that the state doesn’t ask when deciding “What” to build.

Many of us are quite willing to give up Social Security and Medicare and have been calling for reform that includes the ability to opt out of these programs – not pay in and not take out. The Minnesota/Mississippi comparison is a red herring, if for no other reason than the level of taxation is far less important than the method of taxation in determining the effectiveness of taxation. But that discussion involves math.

The “taxes are against the people’s will” misrepresentation is more interesting, because it makes the classic progressive misassumption that democracy describes an economic system, which it does not. 

Democracy addresses the question, “How will society make collective decisions?” It answers the question by putting the power of collective action in the hands of the people. If the state is going to act collectively, it is best the people and not one individual or small group of individuals, makes the decision. 

The question democracy does not address is “WHEN should society act collectively?” The answer to that question is found in a republican government’s constitution. A constitution enumerates when society is authorized to act collectively. If government is not authorized to act, then it cannot act – democratically or in any other way. 

So, when it comes to bonding, government has a legitimate function. It can and should make decisions about essential projects that further its constitutional obligations. Those projects should be fully funded. Government has no authority (or the ability) to &quot;create jobs&quot; by bonding for projects that having nothing to do with its constitutional obligations. Those projects should not be funded.

Debate and discussion and thinking take a little work, but it’s the only reasonable retort to the chest-pounding  substitution of insult for argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here’s the problems with Nick’s argument.</p>
<p>Businesses and individuals do actually build the infrastructure; not only that, the private sector creates the demand for that infrastructure. Government can’t build anything until someone creates the wealth necessary to build it. Infrastructure could easily be built privately, but there is an objective “public good” aspect to infrastructure that makes its construction and maintenance a legitimate function of government. Read the post by Rep. Matt Dean, which poses the proper questions that the state doesn’t ask when deciding “What” to build.</p>
<p>Many of us are quite willing to give up Social Security and Medicare and have been calling for reform that includes the ability to opt out of these programs – not pay in and not take out. The Minnesota/Mississippi comparison is a red herring, if for no other reason than the level of taxation is far less important than the method of taxation in determining the effectiveness of taxation. But that discussion involves math.</p>
<p>The “taxes are against the people’s will” misrepresentation is more interesting, because it makes the classic progressive misassumption that democracy describes an economic system, which it does not. </p>
<p>Democracy addresses the question, “How will society make collective decisions?” It answers the question by putting the power of collective action in the hands of the people. If the state is going to act collectively, it is best the people and not one individual or small group of individuals, makes the decision. </p>
<p>The question democracy does not address is “WHEN should society act collectively?” The answer to that question is found in a republican government’s constitution. A constitution enumerates when society is authorized to act collectively. If government is not authorized to act, then it cannot act – democratically or in any other way. </p>
<p>So, when it comes to bonding, government has a legitimate function. It can and should make decisions about essential projects that further its constitutional obligations. Those projects should be fully funded. Government has no authority (or the ability) to &#8220;create jobs&#8221; by bonding for projects that having nothing to do with its constitutional obligations. Those projects should not be funded.</p>
<p>Debate and discussion and thinking take a little work, but it’s the only reasonable retort to the chest-pounding  substitution of insult for argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Kelsier</title>
		<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/03/30/conservatives-cant-cave-to-chest-beating-primates/comment-page-1/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Kelsier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 04:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mnfmi.org/?p=1388#comment-19</guid>
		<description>Of course your argument would actually be valid if businesses actually built the infrastructure that the economy is built on.  You know..things like roads and such.  But if you want to maintain this fiction of yours then I&#039;m quite sure y&#039;all will be quite willing to give up your Social Security, Medicare and all the other things that taxes go to pay for.

Sorry, children, if it&#039;s true that there is such a thing as too much taxes then it&#039;s equally true that there is such a thing as too little taxes.  Minnesota has higher taxes then Mississippi..and yet for at least the last 30 years Minnesota has had a better economy than Mississippi.  But by your arguments lower taxes should equal a better economy.  And oops that isn&#039;t the case. 

And oh please &quot;Taxes are taken against people&#039;s will.&quot;  Are you honestly so stupid to think that this is a dictatorship or other tyranny?  Do you vote?  If you say yes then you have absolutely no right to say &quot;against your will.&quot;  If you believe it&#039;s so against your will then get your ass out of the country you ungrateful little sob&#039;s.  But you&#039;re absolutely stupid to even remotely think that you get nothing or so little for your taxes.  Knock off the ideology for once and start dealing with reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course your argument would actually be valid if businesses actually built the infrastructure that the economy is built on.  You know..things like roads and such.  But if you want to maintain this fiction of yours then I&#8217;m quite sure y&#8217;all will be quite willing to give up your Social Security, Medicare and all the other things that taxes go to pay for.</p>
<p>Sorry, children, if it&#8217;s true that there is such a thing as too much taxes then it&#8217;s equally true that there is such a thing as too little taxes.  Minnesota has higher taxes then Mississippi..and yet for at least the last 30 years Minnesota has had a better economy than Mississippi.  But by your arguments lower taxes should equal a better economy.  And oops that isn&#8217;t the case. </p>
<p>And oh please &#8220;Taxes are taken against people&#8217;s will.&#8221;  Are you honestly so stupid to think that this is a dictatorship or other tyranny?  Do you vote?  If you say yes then you have absolutely no right to say &#8220;against your will.&#8221;  If you believe it&#8217;s so against your will then get your ass out of the country you ungrateful little sob&#8217;s.  But you&#8217;re absolutely stupid to even remotely think that you get nothing or so little for your taxes.  Knock off the ideology for once and start dealing with reality.</p>
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		<title>By: State Bonding: Essential — or not, period &#171; Minnesota Free Market Institute</title>
		<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/03/30/conservatives-cant-cave-to-chest-beating-primates/comment-page-1/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>State Bonding: Essential — or not, period &#171; Minnesota Free Market Institute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mnfmi.org/?p=1388#comment-17</guid>
		<description>[...] &#171; Conservatives can&#8217;t cave to chest-beating primates [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &laquo; Conservatives can&#8217;t cave to chest-beating primates [...]</p>
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		<title>By: R-Five</title>
		<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/03/30/conservatives-cant-cave-to-chest-beating-primates/comment-page-1/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>R-Five</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mnfmi.org/?p=1388#comment-16</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll agree, less is usually more in these debates.  Taxes and tax policy are too complicated to forge into effective slogans.  Spending might be the better concept.  

State spending has more than tripled in 20 years.  Are you making 3x the money?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll agree, less is usually more in these debates.  Taxes and tax policy are too complicated to forge into effective slogans.  Spending might be the better concept.  </p>
<p>State spending has more than tripled in 20 years.  Are you making 3x the money?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben White</title>
		<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/03/30/conservatives-cant-cave-to-chest-beating-primates/comment-page-1/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 01:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mnfmi.org/?p=1388#comment-15</guid>
		<description>If these arguments are lost, they&#039;re lost because the basic principle has been forgotten:

Tax money is taken from innocent people, by force, against their will.  It&#039;s wrong to take money from people (by force, against their will) to spend it on luxuries.

Thou shalt not steal.  Not even if gorillas are cute.  Hold a fundraiser for your gorilla exhibit.  Ask people to pay.  If they want gorillas, they&#039;ll donate.  Don&#039;t take the money from people, by force, against their will for your entertainment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If these arguments are lost, they&#8217;re lost because the basic principle has been forgotten:</p>
<p>Tax money is taken from innocent people, by force, against their will.  It&#8217;s wrong to take money from people (by force, against their will) to spend it on luxuries.</p>
<p>Thou shalt not steal.  Not even if gorillas are cute.  Hold a fundraiser for your gorilla exhibit.  Ask people to pay.  If they want gorillas, they&#8217;ll donate.  Don&#8217;t take the money from people, by force, against their will for your entertainment.</p>
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