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	<title>Comments on: Single-Payer Model Actually Inhibits Improved Health Care</title>
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	<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/06/25/single-payer-model-actually-inhibits-improved-health-care/</link>
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		<title>By: 2moons</title>
		<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/06/25/single-payer-model-actually-inhibits-improved-health-care/comment-page-1/#comment-1965</link>
		<dc:creator>2moons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 05:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mnfmi.org/?p=2885#comment-1965</guid>
		<description>&quot;In free market, patients control the money&quot;.

Obviously, you are talking to people with insurance  and money to spend on health care. 
   
There is no &quot;market&quot; for people without money.  SChip, Medicare, Medicaid, and VA are government run programs that provide essential medical care for people without income or capacity to contribute economically (i.e. children, elderly, injured, disabled, unemployed, etc...). 

These are the citizens that don&#039;t qualify for private insurance or access to hospitals, doctors and lifesaving treatment.  

It is embarrassing to argue in favor of a system that, literally, excludes sick grandmas and orphans.  As if it is the only way.  yuck.     

Economists worry about numbers and $.  Legislators are concerned with Public Policy.  

I wonder if you can predict the financial impact of pandemic swine flu on the American Economy and society?  

...Its really good for the Pharmaceuticals...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In free market, patients control the money&#8221;.</p>
<p>Obviously, you are talking to people with insurance  and money to spend on health care. </p>
<p>There is no &#8220;market&#8221; for people without money.  SChip, Medicare, Medicaid, and VA are government run programs that provide essential medical care for people without income or capacity to contribute economically (i.e. children, elderly, injured, disabled, unemployed, etc&#8230;). </p>
<p>These are the citizens that don&#8217;t qualify for private insurance or access to hospitals, doctors and lifesaving treatment.  </p>
<p>It is embarrassing to argue in favor of a system that, literally, excludes sick grandmas and orphans.  As if it is the only way.  yuck.     </p>
<p>Economists worry about numbers and $.  Legislators are concerned with Public Policy.  </p>
<p>I wonder if you can predict the financial impact of pandemic swine flu on the American Economy and society?  </p>
<p>&#8230;Its really good for the Pharmaceuticals&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Warren Blechert</title>
		<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/06/25/single-payer-model-actually-inhibits-improved-health-care/comment-page-1/#comment-990</link>
		<dc:creator>Warren Blechert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mnfmi.org/?p=2885#comment-990</guid>
		<description>The problem with your well thought out and detailed presentation is that we have numerous examples of single-payer health care around the world that are working far better than our broken system in the U.S. The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. dead last in the treatment of preventable diseases among industrialized countries. In the overall health care rankings we stand just behind Costa Rica and just in front of Slovinia. In Canada, which you refer to in your faulty comparison, the vast majority of Canadians are very happy with their system and would not think of trading it for what we have. If you would like examples of doctors prescribing less costly treatments to satisfy budgets I can refer you to numerous examples in this country, dictated by insurance companies. And it doesn&#039;t just happen at the end of the year. Unfortunately, the situation we are in, created primarily by insurers and drug companies, is completely indefensible. Do yourself a favor. Stop wasting your time grasping at straws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with your well thought out and detailed presentation is that we have numerous examples of single-payer health care around the world that are working far better than our broken system in the U.S. The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. dead last in the treatment of preventable diseases among industrialized countries. In the overall health care rankings we stand just behind Costa Rica and just in front of Slovinia. In Canada, which you refer to in your faulty comparison, the vast majority of Canadians are very happy with their system and would not think of trading it for what we have. If you would like examples of doctors prescribing less costly treatments to satisfy budgets I can refer you to numerous examples in this country, dictated by insurance companies. And it doesn&#8217;t just happen at the end of the year. Unfortunately, the situation we are in, created primarily by insurers and drug companies, is completely indefensible. Do yourself a favor. Stop wasting your time grasping at straws.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Westover</title>
		<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/06/25/single-payer-model-actually-inhibits-improved-health-care/comment-page-1/#comment-650</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Westover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mnfmi.org/?p=2885#comment-650</guid>
		<description>Jerry --

I&#039;m not sure what you mean by &quot;the quality of care&quot; shot way up. If you mean you are getting more preventative care, that is good for you, but don&#039;t fall victim to the fallacy of composition -- what might be good for any single individual is not necessarily good for the group as a whole.

the classic example is the person who stands up at the ball game to get a better view. That&#039;s good for him. But if everyone stands up, no one is really better off than they were before. Preventative care works much the same way. 

Preventative care certainly makes us healthier, but it also means we are providing preventive care to some individuals who are going to get sick and require expensive care anyway, and we are providing preventative care to people who would not have required expensive care irrespective of receiving preventative care. Individually and perhaps as a group, we are healthier, but we don&#039;t save money.

In the case of your plan, the health insurance company is setting the parameters of your doctor&#039;s care by providing a capitated payment structure. Essentially, this passes the financial risk from the insurance company to the doctor, who is ill-equipped to do the actuarial work necessary to set prices. As you correctly note, if it gets down to the end of the year and he&#039;s running out of money, he may cut back on &quot;quality.&quot; He may put off treatment for you until the next year -- pain pills instead of surgery, for example. This is what happens all the time in Canada.

On a larger scale, capitated payment systems tend to push doctors to practice in clinics like, I&#039;m guessing you go -- where the patients are all fairly well-to-do middle class people who will generally do what the doctor tells them, come in for their check-ups and are pretty healthy. If a doc is going to be capitated, that&#039;s the kind of place where he wants to work -- not where people are poor, have bad health habits and aren&#039;t likely to follow-up with recommendations.

that&#039;s just a brief look at capitated medical payment -- Phase 3 payment for those familiar with the Transformation Task Force health care proposal. I&#039;m glad its working out for you, but capitated payment is in aggregate a really bad idea.

I do plan to do a shorter version of this paragragh by paragraph fisk of Dr. Oliver.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry &#8211;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what you mean by &#8220;the quality of care&#8221; shot way up. If you mean you are getting more preventative care, that is good for you, but don&#8217;t fall victim to the fallacy of composition &#8212; what might be good for any single individual is not necessarily good for the group as a whole.</p>
<p>the classic example is the person who stands up at the ball game to get a better view. That&#8217;s good for him. But if everyone stands up, no one is really better off than they were before. Preventative care works much the same way. </p>
<p>Preventative care certainly makes us healthier, but it also means we are providing preventive care to some individuals who are going to get sick and require expensive care anyway, and we are providing preventative care to people who would not have required expensive care irrespective of receiving preventative care. Individually and perhaps as a group, we are healthier, but we don&#8217;t save money.</p>
<p>In the case of your plan, the health insurance company is setting the parameters of your doctor&#8217;s care by providing a capitated payment structure. Essentially, this passes the financial risk from the insurance company to the doctor, who is ill-equipped to do the actuarial work necessary to set prices. As you correctly note, if it gets down to the end of the year and he&#8217;s running out of money, he may cut back on &#8220;quality.&#8221; He may put off treatment for you until the next year &#8212; pain pills instead of surgery, for example. This is what happens all the time in Canada.</p>
<p>On a larger scale, capitated payment systems tend to push doctors to practice in clinics like, I&#8217;m guessing you go &#8212; where the patients are all fairly well-to-do middle class people who will generally do what the doctor tells them, come in for their check-ups and are pretty healthy. If a doc is going to be capitated, that&#8217;s the kind of place where he wants to work &#8212; not where people are poor, have bad health habits and aren&#8217;t likely to follow-up with recommendations.</p>
<p>that&#8217;s just a brief look at capitated medical payment &#8212; Phase 3 payment for those familiar with the Transformation Task Force health care proposal. I&#8217;m glad its working out for you, but capitated payment is in aggregate a really bad idea.</p>
<p>I do plan to do a shorter version of this paragragh by paragraph fisk of Dr. Oliver.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Ewing</title>
		<link>http://mnfmi.org/2009/06/25/single-payer-model-actually-inhibits-improved-health-care/comment-page-1/#comment-649</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Ewing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mnfmi.org/?p=2885#comment-649</guid>
		<description>That is a brilliant (though much more lengthy) explanation of the stupidity of our political misleaders.  The fundamental rules of economics and human nature tell us that the fundamentals of any economic exchange are that you may dictate any two of three things-- quantity, quality and cost.  These politicians believe they can control all three and, in doing so, end up destroying all of them.   Medicare patients are increasingly without primary care because of cost controls (quantity drops).  Other doctors perform unnecessary procedures on Medicare patients to drive up the bill (quality drops), and the costs are out of control despite their being &quot;below market&quot; as you phrase it.  Didn&#039;t anybody notice that one of GM&#039;s biggest financial problems was &quot;retiree health care&quot;?   How can that be, if Medicare is such a fine program?   

I have only one problem with your analysis, and that is probably a matter of semantics.  By your definition &quot;prepaid managed care&quot; is allowance that someone outside the doctor-patient relationship determines what care is provided.  Under the plan that my employer calls &quot;prepaid care&quot; the health care organization is given a certain amount of money for the year to care for me.  If they don&#039;t do preventive care, I get really sick and that cuts into their profit.  If I get sick and they don&#039;t treat me as effectively and quickly as possible, that comes out of their profit, too.   When I switched to this plan, costs were cut in half and the quality of care shot way up.   This confirms what you&#039;ve said, what I&#039;ve said, and what the Mayo clinic economists have said, that if the problem with the US health care system is cost, then we could cut costs in half by having the government &quot;butt out&quot; and turn it into a true free-market system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a brilliant (though much more lengthy) explanation of the stupidity of our political misleaders.  The fundamental rules of economics and human nature tell us that the fundamentals of any economic exchange are that you may dictate any two of three things&#8211; quantity, quality and cost.  These politicians believe they can control all three and, in doing so, end up destroying all of them.   Medicare patients are increasingly without primary care because of cost controls (quantity drops).  Other doctors perform unnecessary procedures on Medicare patients to drive up the bill (quality drops), and the costs are out of control despite their being &#8220;below market&#8221; as you phrase it.  Didn&#8217;t anybody notice that one of GM&#8217;s biggest financial problems was &#8220;retiree health care&#8221;?   How can that be, if Medicare is such a fine program?   </p>
<p>I have only one problem with your analysis, and that is probably a matter of semantics.  By your definition &#8220;prepaid managed care&#8221; is allowance that someone outside the doctor-patient relationship determines what care is provided.  Under the plan that my employer calls &#8220;prepaid care&#8221; the health care organization is given a certain amount of money for the year to care for me.  If they don&#8217;t do preventive care, I get really sick and that cuts into their profit.  If I get sick and they don&#8217;t treat me as effectively and quickly as possible, that comes out of their profit, too.   When I switched to this plan, costs were cut in half and the quality of care shot way up.   This confirms what you&#8217;ve said, what I&#8217;ve said, and what the Mayo clinic economists have said, that if the problem with the US health care system is cost, then we could cut costs in half by having the government &#8220;butt out&#8221; and turn it into a true free-market system.</p>
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